I will still be reading.

 Re: Accelerate Thought
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2009, 05:29:53 pm » Quote 

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Wry,
It has been fun with you but I am tired of getting nowhere. I can be found in more intriguing topics on Facebook dot com where my name is Owen Foster Thomas. Blessings and goodbye on this site.
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Wry: Okay, Owen. Goodbye and blessings. I am not on facebook but I will join pretty soon and try to look at some of your writings.  If you happen to be reading this, I may make a few comments to you later in my message, but no response expected. The reason I have not replied sooner has nothing to do with you, but because I am over-extended on many different venues where people are waiting to hear from me, so I thought this would be a good opportunity to take a breather. I did found your responses to be very insightful, but through them all, kind of what appeared to me to be an over-riding tendency to, put in American idiom,  "jump the gun."

Everything has it's own time and different people have different times, and this is a key point, in my opinion, if people want to use the basic principles of human biology and physics to work 'magic.'

To continue, my messages are not easy to read, as the way I present information is from two ends of the stick, and a lot is packed into the middle. Somethings I use allegory in a way that is very subtle and not immediately discernable as such, so maybe if someone does not understand what I am saying on the spot, he will have an insight later. In any case, sometimes the beginning of doing is waiting not only for the right time to start but also until one understands how to strike a conscious note, do, which will lead to the do of the next octave. It is not always possible to jump right in, but many people are understandably impatient and very concerned re the general condition of life on earth and so are moved to do something, and if it is based on an altruistic motivation, this I would never discourage.

And right, sometimes doing a project together, can be a hands on learning opportunity, and, in a few weeks or possibly sooner, I am going to sharean idea for a very simple project we can all begin to do together, which will be world changing and cost free in a certain sense that funding will not be a problem, and which will generate hugh amounts of prosperity for all concerned, and also be in complete accordance with David's vision. And I hope we we all start thinking of what we can do and begin to share on that, though, from my end, I am not quite ready to begin discussing this yet.

The problem of self-replicating disorder ("the dark lord") needs to be approached from many different angles which will lead to a conscious, creative reorganization. In this regard, different people have different kinds of insights and abilities to actualize according to their individual circumstances, propensities and capacities, but David's vision, which I would like to look at very carefully, is very specific, so we have something to look at in relationship to many different factors, and we can keep that vision as a kind of center point and turn it around and look at it from many different angle until we understand it better, then maybe there will be a change in the way we are able to see it, as understanding changes everything, and maybe some others have a better understanding than I do, but for me the process iof discovery has to proceed in accordance with my own inner time and, in this sense, probably cannot be speeded up.

So, already we have a contrast which has to do with time. Accelerated thought is, according to its definition, very fast in relationship to ordinary thought, and yet certain processes simply cannot be speeded up in the sense that everything is interdependent and not static but moving, so related by cause and effect, and one cause is not just connected to one effect, though this may be how I think about it as I am doing something, but fans out in many different ways and intersect with, is affected by and affects, many chains of events, interconnected to the thinking of many people, some of whose thinking is very ignorant and slow. One action or event may affect the world in many different ways, and people will respond very differently according to their various interpretations. For instance, what I wrote to you, Owen, probabl;y seemed very long and even tedious, but to me it was much shorter, as when I was writing I could see a tiny glimmer of the light, and this created--I do not know exactly how to put it, as I am not a physicist, but something like a red shift in that I knew where I was going ahead of time and my mind was already adjusted to arrive, though I was not going to arrive yet. But if a person does not catch a glimmer of where I am going when reading what I write, then the trip may seem much longer and not worthwhile, whereas, I know, you Owen, see your own glimmer.

Now, one, question: is the light the same, but the darkness that is different?

Here it is necessary to begin to speak of the over-all structure of material and the inherent organizing capacity of an intelligence that is not material bound. I have previously made the point that everything that exists is material, so when I speak of intelligence, I am speaking not of something that is immaterial, as this would make no sense, but of a different material relationship which is not merely inherenenly repetitive, but spontaneously creative, and I think this may in some way be what David might have meant by acceleratred thought. In any case, when I begin to understand that there is an organizing capacity which is the actualized potential of human intelligence, then my participation at a certain juncture becomes a matter of faith. Without faith it is not possible to proceed. To give an example from the Old Testament, when the children of Isreal walked into the Sea, it is not that they believed in the idea of God, which would be akin to worshipping an image, but because they were functioning in accordance with a vision of the possibility of a form of reorganization which was interconnected with the act of taking a step in a different direction, so in this sense, the "see" opened to make a path, which was accomplished by an act of faith. This is also expressed in spiritual literature as moving mountains. But the point is that first one makes a mundane structure which is in relationship to a higher order, and in order to do this it is necessary to consciously make checkpoints, which one does this by selecting certain points, not all points. Then there is a possibility to remember, so in some way to consciously connect the mundane with the supermundane, but without faith that the checkpoints which are being made will enable one to ultimately be able to function in accordance with a higher order which is inherently organizing and so spontaneous, what is impossible is not possible.

If I do not write here for a week or two or three, I am not abandoning this project and I will be back. Re the (seeming) lack of participation, that is not a problem for me, but is favorable. People should not speak unless they actually have something to say. You did have something to say, Owen, so you spoke, and this was actually very helpful, Without interacting with you and coming to understand it is necessary to do a hands on project of some kind, I do not think I would have come to conceive of this particular experiment. And maybe some others can think of various experiemnts too. We are all scientists in our own way. Love, Wry

Wry,
It has been fun with you but I am tired of getting nowhere. I can be found in more intriguing topics on Facebook dot com where my name is Owen Foster Thomas. Blessings and goodbye on this site.

on: July 01, 2009, 09:33:37 am:
owenthomas wrote
Re accelerated thought:


"Wry,You want to know what is right action.
I only know hot to take action in th world which I perceive with my senses. I may be able to solve this problem by pinching my hand and feel the pinch, then repeat to signal that I felt it. I have never become awake after this sequence of acts. I just performed them and now I am writing. I believe this means I am not now dreaming.

I would like to know how to determine the difference between my present thinking and the comprehensive thought which you describe:
"What is meant by comprehensive? It is that thought, or better put, an alive intelligence, sees the ENTIRE picture, as such thought has immediate access to all knowledge, and so responds with a direct movement that is effortless and at the same time fully integrative."

I believe that when I have come to the state of 'comprehensive thought' i will be able to exert 'right effort". Is it possible that AT is the same thinking that you call 'comprehensive thought'? if so, how can we achieve it while being certain that we are not dreaming?"
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Wry: Yes, this is the state I was speaking of. The direct response of a comprehensive mind or, put differently, an alive intelligence or spontaneity. However, as you suggested, we often, if not most of the time or even always, think/feel (Idream) we are alrteady approaching from such an alive intelligence when we are not, and, in general, have all kinds of notions about ourselves, our functioning and the general laws of the universe which are wrong.

However, to be true to the intent of this forum, we might need to look at all of this, at least in the beginning, in relationship to David's vision of Project Mind, so if there is such a phenonema as accelerated thought, how does this apply to putting scientists in a specific kind of think tank so that they will enter such a state of mind and come up with inventions which will solve the problems of humanity and so bring a state of oasis to earth? Is this the way a comprehensive mind would approach, or is the solution made by a comprehensive mind immediate and so immediately world changing? This is question we could perhaps enquire into.

It is my understanding that the basic concept of working with the various functions of a human being in order to achieve spontaneity exists in the inner teachings of almost all of the religions of humanity,  and surely all of the major religions, but is phrased in such a way that unless a person understands the inner language of symbolism, such a correspondence may not be immediately apparent. The point I would like to make is that all of these religions, including Judiasm, approach from two different angles, an angle that is very general which includes basic ethical teachings and also various religious rituals and practice, the latter of which act as a support to the former, and then there is also an inner aspect which can be called esoteric that is available to a few. The point is that between these two approaches, inner and outer, or mundane and esoteric, there is a certain degree of discrepancy. In short, this is the nature of the beast, as we are dealing with two or even many different times. The (timing) of the functioning of different kinds of people, such as, for example, self centered people, has many reference points, which to a realized being or saint might be unnecessary. Damn fascinating, actually, as in a way, the poles reverse. I think in the inner teaching of Islam, for example, this is referred to as blazing midnight and dark noon, though even this is not the final end result, as there can still be an identification with that. And again, the realized being or saint may have even more reference points, +in a sense,+ when we look at this from a different angle.

But the question for me is, how to sort all of this out so as to make an actual beginning that will lead to the final end result and not just get lost in a maze? So what you wrote about coming to ones senses is, in this respect, very interesting. Similarily, there are ways to know that one is in a psychological dream, but if one is liviing in a psychological dream in that one is functioning from a distorted view of the nature of reality, then ones very way of seeing is, as it is put in a certain Christian writing, "through a glass darkly, so one cannot know that one is deluded. This is why help from outside this loop may be necessary. We can make the postute, as you seem to be doing, and with which, in a general sense, I agree, that some kind of action is in itself is the bridge between being psychologically asleep and being awake, but the actions we are already doing and which will mechanically arise from what we are doing, support our illusion of being awake. In my opinion, one of the functions of religion, is to provide a support which (supposdely) leads to ethical activity, but, as we have seen, in all major religions, to what degree, depending upon how they are designed, fundamentalism takes over, and so the possibility of greater meaning is lost, and the actions of a human being being become more and more disconnected from living a life that is ethical and based on conscience.

The reason I am writing all of this is to point out that, perhaps, in order to really understand the entire dynamic of accelerated thought and to so achieve a functioning of compassionate intelligent spontaneity in oneself, it is necessary to have a conventional basis which serves as the foundation for receiving such an inner teaching. This does not mean that one necessarily needs to join a church or a synagogue, but that the substance produced by human beings which will act as kind of conduit and so carry the (electrical?) energy or the conscious light which is interconnected to the living word, to realized inspiration and so make an original creation, needs to be based on an general understanding of certain principles, such as, for example, the functioning of cause and effect and also the interconnection of all phenonema, all of which leads back to the general mundane principle of our daily functioning in realtionship, so back to community. Without such a support and the conscious understanding of how it functions, no matter how accelerated the thought of a scientist, even if he has a momentary vision of univeral knowledge, he will not know what to invent, as he will not be able to understand the nuances of the general context of the functioning of the average human being, including himself, in relationship to the more specific context of accelerated thought (a different timing of the functions), so he will not be able to consciously make a bridge between these two worlds with their diffferent times by conscious spontaneous doing or the performing of (cosmic) dance.

Even if we find a way to make enough water for everyone, there will still not be enough water, or if there is, something else will be lacking, in that someone, because of his (perceived) lack, will take more than his due share, so what we are looking for to make is the water of life, and the food we are looking to find, as it is called in the fairytales, is the golden apple. We are looking to discover how to tap what is already here. This is why I think many of us, including myself, have had such a strong original experience when we first heard of the idea of accelerated thought, but then when we think about it more and more, the experience decreases. Very fascinating. If I pinch myself once or twice to see if I am physically awake, this does have the effect of bringing me to my senses, but if I do it over and over, this actually brings me more and more into a trance state, and might even result in physically falling asleep. So maybe there was a logic for David to in some ways limit discussion, as this to some degree allowed his vision to remain functional, but still,  we probably need to look at that.

I know I have put a lot in this message, but the single basic idea is that there are two different worlds, not one, which are technically really the same world, of course, but function always in conjunction with each other. If we function at any given time from only one of these worlds, either one or the other, then we will always be functioning at an imbalance, and so, will never experience the opportunity to drink of the water of life or to eat the golden apple. This is why fairytales are so meaningful to a child, as a child is still able to connect to both worlds at once. Does this make 'sense?'   Without thinking and feeling, the inner meaning is not complete, so this is what is meant by comprehension. Of course, comprehension also always has two aspects, both the subjective and the objective. When I know what I understand, then what I know is the object of knoweldge, but when I comprehend myself +as+ I am comprehending, this is living intelligence, and so, +as+ one is comprehending, there is a perpetual 'object' of knowledge, which is ones subjective mind as it is understanding, and as such, can only be negated.

This is probably what is meant by freedom. I am not 100% percent sure, as I can conceive of such a possibility, and I can also negate the (conventional) reality of my conception, but personally, even after many years of work, I am not able to carry such a realization over clock time, so writing on a forum such as this, functions for me as a kind of support, but I keep having the same realization over and over, will it put me to sleep, much as pinching myself over and over to see if I am having a physical dream as opposed to waking sleep?. So much for the oddments of physical reality. I think that conscious bridge-making is the solution, but again, how does one approach such a project, from just one angle repeated over and over, or from many different angles or from both perspectives? Okay. Hear is some food 4 thought.. Love, Wry

 Re: PMF Vision
 on: July 01, 2009, 11:06:16 am
Owen wrote:


Wry,
My understanding of a logical plan of development for Project Mind:

I think this vision is simply a statement of desired outcome. Is the desire specified with enough clarity and detail to attract others to the project. Would you like to clarify or amplify the vision?

When we agree upon the statment of a vision we need to proceed to the next step that describes the actions which will bring the vision to reality.

With love and blessings,

Owen
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Hi Owen. The problem for me is that the vision is clear enough if I skip logical steps of thinking and just believe in it, but when I look at it more carefully, I do not see the actions, as outlined, leading to the result that is projected. I see the kind of skipped steps in thinking that often happen with various forms of idealism.

I do not see that putting various scientists in a room and accelerating their thinking process (if such is even possible) can lead to the solution of various problems for humanity by creating (the conditions which will lead to) abundance. To me that is a naive. Even if we can get others to believe in this vision and so do raise funds to proceed, I do not see that such will lead to the desired outcome.

I am thinking that most if not all of us probably do not even know what accelerated thought is, though we have have experienced a little flash or an inkling of a different kind of thinking which we perceive to be AT.

The reason I was and still am attracted to this project is because of the idea of accelerated thought, as my special subject of study, about which I am passionate, is how social sysytems organize and so can be stimulated to further organize on the internet, which is an electro-magnetic medium, specially how certain seeds can be planted which will lead to the general conditions which might stimulate epiphany in more people; however, each person has to change his own way of thinking and see things for himself. If a person is selfish and does not want to share, making it possible by various innovations of science for him to have food, clothing and shelter will probably not change that inner greed, though if other human beings begin to be generous, then this can catch on like wildfire, so personally, I think it might be more beneficial to focus in the direction of the latter, such as study how to promote genrosity in people.

+Only if the mind of an individual is transformed, will the world around him begin to change, but in order for this to happen each person whose mind is (going to be) transformed needs to be an active participant. Moreover, the mind can only be transformed now and not later, which seems to me must be one of the basic principles of the dynamics of what is called accelerated thought, but in seeming contradiction to this is another basic principle-- that the transformation of a human mind can only happen by cause and effect.+

^If even a (few) hundred people can reconcile these two principles within themselves in such a way that both are operative +*at the same time*+, I believe we will see a radical change in the general functioning of humanity, as even though each person thinks for himself, such thinking does organize and resonate in conjunction with the thinking of other people, so in this sense, the way a person thinks can be immediately world changing; however, again, one step at a time.^

We all need our little or big projects to keep us seemingly on the track, but if wrong thinking/and so the wrong set of dynamics is behind what I am doing (speaking from my own life and personal experience), such as if I am grasping to make this or that project much like I grasp at collecting various objects, then I do not achieve the extremely delicate balance that is required between various factors of my own functioning, so the timing is off and my thinking is slow, though, because I am so engaged with what I am doing,  it feels like the appropriate speed to me  But this kind of engagement is an identification.

In conclusion, I think there may be a basic misunderstanding about what is being referred to as accelerated thought, and I will begin to go into this little by little, on the other thread, when I can find the time. Love, Wry

Wry,
My understanding of a logical plan of development for Project Mind:

I think this vision is simply a statement of desired outcome. Is the desire specified with enough clarity and detail to attract others to the project. Would you like to clarify or amplify the vision?

When we agree upon the statment of a vision we need to proceed to the next step that describes the actions which will bring the vision to reality.

With love and blessings,

Owen

Wry,You want to know what is right action.
I only know hot to take action in th world which I perceive with my senses. I may be able to solve this problem by pinching my hand and feel the pinch, then repeat to signal that I felt it. I have never become awake after this sequence of acts. I just performed them and now I am writing. I believe this means I am not now dreaming.

I would like to know how to determine the difference between my present thinking and the comprehensive thought which you describe:
"What is meant by comprehensive? It is that thought, or better put, an alive intelligence, sees the ENTIRE picture, as such thought has immediate access to all knowledge, and so responds with a direct movement that is effortless and at the same time fully integrative."

I believe that when I have come to the state of 'comprehensive thought' i will be able to exert 'right effort". Is it possible that AT is the same thinking that you call 'comprehensive thought'? if so, how can we achieve it while being certain that we are not dreaming?

Hi. I want to go back to one of the ideas I recall reading in this thread. I forget who wrote it and do not know if such a statement conforms with the general approach of project mind, but I would want to look at this idea more carefully, as if we just leave it and go on without questioning, then that idea may be taken, at least by some, as a kind of given.

The premise is that through scientific breakthroughs there will be created abundance which will allow people the leisure to transform their minds. As I wrote before, I agree that it is necessary for people who are caught up in great stress and struggle and trying desperately to survive, which probably describes the condition of much of humanity, to have at least a certain degree of leisure in order be able to focus on transforming their minds, but the idea that when abundance is created people will then be able to transform their minds or will even automatically be interested in attempting to do that is an extremely weak premise, as leisure is only one factor which is required, and I do not see much evidence (from studying how my own mind works and also from observing the functioning of many other people) that such would actually be the case,  even IF it is possible to enact the degree of scienftic breakthrough that would create such abundance for everyone.

So anyone who is folowing this thread, please try to look very deeply at this particular idea and ponder it. It is my understanding, and I may be wrong, so if I am, someone please write here or privately correct me, that this thread is created not just to lay out the aim of of project mind, but also to discuss and give feedback regarding the basic premise upon which this aim is formulated and so possibly refine or even redefine our approach in such a way that there is a better possibility for the original altruistic intention to be actualized. As I said before, inquiry may be difficult, but I do not want to skip steps in my thinking.

(And here is another question, which maybe we can go into on the AT thread: If I skip taking logical steps in my thinking and just assume that one thing will lead to another because I believe it in, what will happen?  I may try to do something very fast, without thinking about it, but will this lead to accelerated thought?  And yet it is important to have faith in what I am doing. Is faith simply believing in an idea or does it have a broader application related to taking a step or action in present time?) 

Okay. I am very busy right now and it is hard to find time to write, but I will try continue when somethiung new comes to me.  Love, Wry

on: June 26, 2009, 05:57:58 am
Owen wrote:

Wry and any others watching this thread:
Last night I had a dream that I left a meeting in the car of a friend only to discover that he was not going to my home and my wife did not know that I had left. I eventually convinced my friend that I needed to return to the meeting place before my wife left. After many false turns I was very frustrated as I awakened to discover with relief that it was only a dream.

This topic of AT is related to the 'altruisitc purpose' but fails to address the physical means for accomplishing the purpose and David refused to address this lack in private communications.

Put this together with my dream and other teachings that claim this life is only a dream that fails to recognize the physical reality of this universe. Those teachings advocate that we wake up, or become enlightened to see the reality in order to avoid the suffering that is only a dream. Accelerating the dream only leads to more rapid frustration.

Is it possible that David's book and his references to Kabalistic meditation would lead to the same awakening?

Is the idea of AT only another form of Zen Koan that has no solution except by waking up to the dream that we can solve the riddles of physical necessity by human thought?

Are we awake?

Love and blessings,

Owen
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Wry: Hi Owen. Interesting message. The idea of dream or of life being an illusion, such as presented, for example, in the middle way school of Buddhism, is meant to be comprehensive, so, in this sense, if I am not overtly suffering and am living in physical abundance, then that is a dream, too.


The meaning of being asleep, as I understand it, is believing this dream to be real, NOT in the sense that it does not exist, but in the sense that that things do not actually exist as they conventionally appear, but only in the context of relative meaning, which meaning involves imputation by naming; however, such relative imputation cannot be taken away, as this is how we think, speak and function, but this does not mean we have to be identified in the sense that we believe such a contextual view is ultimately true. I will try to write more on this subject in the future if I can find the time.

Secondly, personally I DO believe that it is human thought which can solve the problem of human suffering, as it is human thought which frames and structures human behavior.

How can (right) thought solve all the problems of humanity? The answer is that at the final level of integration, thought is connected to a movement which is comprehensive in that it it spontaneously inspired by altruistic motivation, and so, by the conscious living deed, reoganizes not only itself (the brain) but also the world around it with which it is interdependent. What is meant by comprehensive? It is that thought, or better put, an alive intelligence, sees the ENTIRE picture, as such thought has immediate access to all knowledge, and so responds with a direct movement that is effortless and at the same time fully integrative. But in order to be able to function in such a way, we would first need to alter our present functioning, which involves Work. So we lay the groundwork for leisure by Work, but wrongly applied effort does not lead to the tranformation of the mind of a human being. So the question for me, what is right effort? Love, Wry

Wry and any others watching this thread:
Last night I had a dream that I left a meeting in the car of a friend only to discover that he was not going to my home and my wife did not know that I had left. I eventually convinced my friend that I needed to return to the meeting place before my wife left. After many false turns I was very frustrated as I awakened to discover with relief that it was only a dream.

This topic of AT is related to the 'altruisitc purpose' but fails to address the physical means for accomplishing the purpose and David refused to address this lack in private communications.

Put this together with my dream and other teachings that claim this life is only a dream that fails to recognize the physical reality of this universe. Those teachings advocate that we wake up, or become enlightened to see the reality in order to avoid the suffering that is only a dream. Accelerating the dream only leads to more rapid frustration.

Is it possible that David's book and his references to Kabalistic meditation would lead to the same awakening?

Is the idea of AT only another form of Zen Koan that has no solution except by waking up to the dream that we can solve the riddles of physical necessity by human thought?

Are we awake?

Love and blessings,

Owen